Mary Reid

Good questions, Shane. I'm committed to making it work, as are the key council officers including the Director of Learning and Children's Services. The young people themselves are clued up anyway and some of them have already run campaigns and used e-petitions to do so.
KYC already has representatives on the Children and Young People's Partnership - which does the key work for the Children's Trust - and they serve on working groups.
Kingston does have other consultative committees, such as leaseholders. They do have an official status so they are formally consulted on anything that concerns them.
The main challenge is to make sure that all council departments recognise the need to consult young people about the services they use. I, and the young people, will be monitoring this.

Apologies to Shane. When deleting some offensive comments I deleted your comment as well by mistake .... here it is again.

"Recently I introduced a proposal to make KYC a formal consultative committee of the Council, so they should get consulted on a number of Council proposals."
That's sounds like a great proposal. What does it mean? What are the other formal Consultative Committees? Is this an official status? What weight is given to their opinions? What proposals will YP get to be consulted on - some commentators reckon that YP use about 80% of services provided by councils, will they have a say on all services they use?
Sorry for the barrage of questions but I am genuinely interested to hear how this works. Too often Local Authorities pay lip service to youth participation and it sounds as though you are trying to avoid doing that.

How do people come to sit on KYC? Are they elected? If so, by who?
If they are not elected, surely there must be some concerns about how representative they really are of young people.

Perhaps you need to ask them for details, but I do know they have representatives from a number of schools.
In general I will delete anonymous comments, or those using dubious email addresses. Misuse of this blog has started up again and I will turn comments off if it continues.

(This is not intended to be a "misuse of this blog" comment, I am simply staying anonymous for fear of reprisals. This is intended as a legitimate enquiry and I am genuinely interested in your response.)
I take it from your reply that you do not in fact know how people come to sit on the youth council. Now don't take this question the wrong way, but given that you are the executive member for young people, don't you think it's your responsibility to find out whether or not KYC has any kind of representative mandate before you lend their views weight? For all you know, ordinary young people may have had no say in their selection. If that is the case, surely their views should be weighted so as to take account of the fact that they have little or no mandate.
Also, do you know if KYC receives any form of council funding for its activities?

It is not information that I hold in my head all the time.
I have just checked and KYC has 16 members. This is a young organisation that is working towards a democratic mandate with the support of youth workers and I will be supporting them to do that. Although they are aiming to be representative, they are dependent on the co-operation of schools. They are also considering how they can consult young people in general effectively across the borough.
You can find the report that came to Executive here:
http://www.kingston.gov.uk/council_and_democracy/committeeminutes/moderngov.htm?mgl=ieListDocuments.asp&CId=134&MId=4514&Ver=4

There are about 20 members of Kingston Youth Council. They are drawn from local schools and most have 2 representatives the vast majority of which are elected to school council positions or hold a position of reponsiblity at the school. Other members come from youth projects in Kingston. The new youth involvement worker has been working hard to increase the number of members on Kingston Youth Council. In addition on the Cambridge Road Estate there is a seperate youth council for young people there and they feed into local democratic organisations. The Youth Council also has an elected member and an elected deputy member (myself) of the UK Youth Parliament affiliated with them who it was decided by the youth service would be the Chair and Deputy Chair of the Youth Council. Personally I think that we should have borough wide elections for the youth council and that in the constitution should be entered a clause that stipulates the youth council should strunize local elected bodies to make sure that they are adhearing to the interests of the young people of Kingston. There is increasing discussion within the youth council of tis future and I or any other member would welcome the input of members of the public.

Thank you for your reply. I have now read the committee minutes and the accompanying appendix D to which you refer.
It is obvious from these documents that none of the KYC members has been elected to the KYC. The only member with a democratic mandate is the Chair, who is the elected Member of the (National) Youth Parliament. Her elected mandate is only as MYP, she is not directly elected to KYC.
The documents do not say exactly how the members are appointed, but it is clear that they are not elected.
How many young people who reside or attend school in Kingston are even aware of the existence of this organisation that purports to represent them? Anecdotally, I have family and neighbours under 19 and none of them have heard of this. Certainly, young people who reside in Kingston but are educated elsewhere are probably totally unaware of it, as they do not get it communicated to them through their school.
I am concerned that undue weight is being given to the views of an unelected body that may or may not be representative but certainly has no authority to speak on others' behalf. I appreciate that they are "working towards" a democratic mandate and that they do a lot of valuable work, but until they have an elected mandate surely their views should be weighted to take account of the fact that Kingston's ordinary young people have not given these people permission to speak for them?
I know that you want to listen to young people's views, but you surely recognise that listening to 16 unelected young people is not the same as listening to young people generally?

KYC is a young and developing organisation. I would be the last person to try to discourage it whilst it is still working through its constitution and processes and communications.
Kingston consults very widely on all kinds of issues - far more than any other council. Young people are included in this through a variety of mechanisms. It would be very rare for KYC to be the only route by which young people are consulted.
For example, a special children's consultation leaflet was produced on the first Children and Young people's Plan and received over 300 responses. These were reported last Tuesday to Executive.

Having now had the advantage of reading Michael Joslin's reply, I must say I am even more concerned.
Most of the members are drawn from local schools, according to Michael. Surely this leaves a huge gap in the shape of young people who live in Kingston but are educated elsewhere? I acknowledge that local residents also appear to be represented, but there still seems quite an imbalance against residents who are educated elsewhere.
Also, it is clear from Michael's reply that whilst KYC members hold other elected positions, none are elected directly to KYC. And what are these "positions of responsibility" of which he speaks? Does he mean prefects, sports captians, etc?
It is quite clear that for all the valuable effort KYC makes, hardly any ordinary young people have ever given it permission to speak on their behalf. The weight that the council gives to its views should therefore be limited accordingly. I am concerned that the council is simply "taking the easy way out" by just listening to those who speak up rather than also making the effort to reach out to the wider population of young people. That, I am afraid, is not taking young people's democratic participation seriously enough.

"I would be the last person to try to discourage it whilst it is still working through its constitution and processes and communications."
I am not suggesting that you discourage it. On the contrary, demanding that they get a democratic mandate will encourage them.
I accept that Kingston consults young people outside of the KYC, but it is the imbalance that concerns me. At the end of the day, KYC is just 16 or 20 young people, who - notwithstanding all the hard work that they do - have no authority to speak for anyone but themselves. I am concerned that disproportionate weight is given to their views by the council.

The Youth Council has only been in existence for a year and a half so we are building a new organisation from stratch. I won't discuss sensitive issues on an internet site but feel free to email me at michaeljos31@hotmail.com and I will explain the full situation to you. We have several members who go to school outside the borough but live in Kingston. Also most members are elected in someway and it is a representative organisation. However I personally belive that Kingston Youth Council should be made into a Kingston Youth Parliament and that every member directly elected, however the youth service does not believe this is appropriate. There are issues below the surface that I won't dilvuge as I said earliar but feel free to contact me and I will go into them.
I also disagree that young people don't know about Kingston Youth Council. I get recognised in the street and in Kingston when I am walking about as do other members. We have built up a media profile. The youth involvement worker also goes to every school in the borough and gives talks on Kingston Youth Council. Let me stress how much effort is put into involving as many people as possible but there are two part time workers. If you want any more info please get in touch.

Michael Joslin's reply totally misses the point. He says "most members are elected in some way" - this may be so, but they are not elected to the Youth Council, and Kingston's young people have not been given a chance to say whether or not they want the KYC members representing them IN THAT CAPACITY.
He confidently asserts that "it is a representative organisation", and maybe he is right, but there is no denying that it cannot claim to speak for Kingston's young people when kingston's young people have never given it permission to speak for them.
I cannot accept his assertion that young people know about it. OK, he gets recognised in the street. But for every young person who recognises him, scores walk past him without having the foggiest idea who he is. Being recognised occasionally proves nothing. Also, the media profile proves nothing - very few young people read the local press.
Why can he not go into the supposedly sensitive issues on this website? If he can divulge them to me (a complete stranger) by e-mail surely he can divulge them to all the other complete strangers reading this? In which case, why not publish it? For all he knows, I might publish it myself once I have got it from him by e-mail. This is just an excuse to shut down the debate.
Bottom line - unelected people do not speak for anyone but themselves.

You seem to think I am totally disagreeing with you, I am not. But the Youth Council needs time to change though- it doesn't happen over night. The youth council does need to be fully elected - I completely suppourt that idea, but there is not the suppourt for that within the youth service. But is it better to have a youth council than not have one at all? And every young person in Kingston is given the opportunity to be in the youth council. Every school and college is made aware of it by the youth involvement worker. Myself and Halima Moin MYP have every right to speak on behalf of young people as we are the elected Deputy and Member of Youth Parliament for Kingston and this year about 4,000 young people voted. The rest of the youth council make efforts to consult as many young people as possible before making any decision. As for the youth council being a consultative body it is just that, a consultative body. We are consulted by the Council, we have no power to tell the Council what to do as Mary Reid will tell you. The KYC is made up of young people, and puts foward the views of young people but does not claim to act on their behalf. There are many groups that are consulted by the youth service- oxygen, youth centres etc, outreach projects. It is also my intention to try and hold advice surgeries and consultation events to get the views of more people. However this is the busiest time of year- most of us have exams and I have A levels this year so change doesn't happen over night. I hope you would give us time to make that change as it will come. Mary Reid has been incredibly suppourtive and I am sure that she will continue to be suppourtive. I have spoken to her on many occasions and I know how passionate she is about enaging young people so I am sure that this change will happen.

It is certainly the intention that the KYC should move towards a Youth Parliament model, and that is supported by the youth workers. All the schools now have school councils, so it should be possible to work with them.

There are a number of issues to be resolved - how to get all the schools participating (including independent schools), how to represent Kingston young people at schools outside the borough, how to represent young people who are not at school.

I am particularly keen to make sure that primary school children are included. It may be better to have a separate bodies for primary and secondary aged people, so that the younger children do not feel overwhelmed, but the two bodies would have to liaise with each other.

All of this is for future discussion. It is better to start and then work slowly forward and get it right, than to rush in with a scheme that can't cope.

I would respond to one comment, the one about the weight given to specific groups. One of the difficult problems that all councillors have is to try to balance the demands from different groups - whether they are consultative groups, pressure groups or individuals. So when I have to make a decision about whether to support a proposal I listen to all the voices that have contributed to the debate. I also ask myself who has not been heard - are there silent people whose needs have not been expressed? A consultation is not a referendum, and in the end we have to account to the electors for decisions we make.

Again, Michael Joslin has missed the point entirely.
Yes, the KYC should be elected. Yes, it is better to have a youth council than none at all. Yes, all the effort KYC makes in respect of surgeries, consultations etc is wonderful. Yes, the KYC needs time to change. All this is irrelevant to the problem with the KYC - it is not elected at the moment.
Only two of the people who sit on it have ever been elected by young people (the MYPs), and that franchise was restricted to people educated in kingston (i.e. it excluded kingston residents). Therefore, the MYPs only have a mandate to speak on behalf school-students not residents, and the other members have no mandate.
Given this state of affairs, the council should not take the easy option of assuming falsely that the KYC speaks on behalf of kingston's young people.
Michael Joslin can rave about the good work the KYC does as much as he likes, but none of that changes the fact that it is unelected and therefore cannot speak on behalf of young people generally.
He asserts in his comment that the KYC "puts foward the views of young people". This is the whole problem! As an unelected body, it just cannot claim to do that! It only puts the forward the views of a certain number of young people (its members, and those they have consulted with), but those views cannot be presumed to be those of young people in general because young people in general have given it no mandate to represent them.

I am grateful for Mary Reid's last comment about weight given in consultations. This goes some way to allaying my fears that the council assumes that KYC represents young people generally, when it clearly cannot.
However, I still think Mary Reid and other councillors are far too quick to be seen endorsing KYC without any acknowledgment of its limitations. It is an unelected body, and the councillors should show more circumspection and keep a decent distance from it.

There was plenty of opportunity for those who live in the Borough to vote. Every youth club and youth project had a voting box. There was advertising at leisure centres and other places. Yes it could have been better but I don't know why you seem so intent on damning the organisation. I do not miss the point at all- I don't understand why you think I am missing it. The KYC does not claim to represent young people but we get the opinions of lots of different groups to educate our opinions. There are many consultative groups of the council that are wholly unelected. And I recognise your point entirely and KYC I have to say IS changing but things don't happen overnight. Mary Reid as she has said herself wants the KYC to grow and evolve. But change takes time. KYC has achieved a lot and continues to achieve a lot. In a years time if things are different you will have every right to complain. But we understand ourselves the problems. That is the point of a youth involvement worker to make the organisation more representative.

It is rather worrying that Michael Joslin cannot understand the simple point being made here.
KYC is not an elected body. It is that simple.
All the other comments Michael Joslin makes about the nature of KYC (that it should change, that it does good work, that it might be elected in the future, etc) are irrelevant to this point.
The problem is - it is unelected.
Saying this is not "damning" the organisation - it is just pointing out the simple fact... KYC is not elected.
I do not understand why Michael Joslin insists on raving on and on about the work KYC does and how hard it tries. None of that is remotely relevant to the issue of whether or not it is elected.
As KYC is unelected, it is simply wrong of the council to accord it so much status at the moment. This is so however hard KYC may be trying in other areas.
I am afraid I cannot put it more simply than this, so let's hope Michael Joslin can grasp the point finally.

I think you have made that point several times now. You don't need to repeat it over and over again.
Good debate consists of making points, listening to the opposition, then courteously agreeing to differ. You should come along to a debate at Council to see what I mean.
If you want to raise issues with Kingston Youth Council then I suggest you raise them directly with the Chair, Halima Moin.

Does the fact that KYC are unelected make a difference to the work we do as an organisation to get the views of young people from all over the borough? I don't believe so. I am a memeber of KYC and have been since since 2004. We all and our youth particapation workers encourage every young person to join KYC and have their views expressed, and by limiting the numbers of people allowed in to the KYC by elections is simply unnecessary. Mary Reid has clearly stated that all groups get their voice heard and KYC are not the only group considered. Yet that does not mean we are not fit enough to be informed on issues, simply because we are not an elected committee. KYC is still at its birth and we are an ever increasing group, getting more diverse characters from all backgrounds and views by the month. From my own recollection this borough has not had so many young people interested in politics and youth issues since KYC.

Dear "anonymous"
I am also a member of the kyc, however unlike Mary Reid and Michael Joslin i have no actual official political ambitions or responsibilities so I shall give you my honest opinion. Your gripe is with the KYC being unelected... so what?... should we abandon it, shut up shop and put to bed all the good work that the KYC has done? I would agree many of the members are not properly elected, so do we stop the whole thing and have an imediate election borough wide so that we aren't a crazy group of young people on the rampage?... no. I understand your point but you are asking far too much of a very young organisation. Besides... who are we hurting?...how have we upset you anonymous?..... have u suffered from one of our crazy policies?... perhaps the increase in youth provision we asked for?... or was it the recycling that you disagree with?.. please criticize us when we do something wrong...but otherwise with all due respect put a sock in it. Ok we aren't properly elected, but we may well be in the future and until then we are happy for any young people to come along and lend their opinions. Last of all give us some slack!! rome wasn't built in a day... thankyou. btw, please give us your name as anonymous is highly unhelpful for us contacting you and discussing this properly.

I fail to understand the indignation shown by the last two commenters.
If you had actually read my comments rather than just trying to interpret everything as a personal attack on you, you will see that my only "gripe" with the KYC is that the council gives weight to its views that is out of proportion to its status as an unelected body. This is entirely different from suggesting that it should "shut up shop" or that it is "hurting" anyone.
If you had actually read the comments I posted, you will see I never suggested the KYC was uninformed or that it had done anything wrong. Your indignant questions about "what has the KYC done to hurt me" etc are therefore irrelevant.
The point is simple. KYC members are unelected. As such, they speak only for themselves and those they have consulted directly. They do not speak for young people generally, because young people generally have not given them the right to do so.
And in fact, my "gripe" is not with KYC at all. It is with those councillors who give more weight than they should to the views of an unelected body.
btw I just don't understand the following indignant repsonses to my comments- "we aren't a crazy group of young people on the rampage" - when did I ever suggest that?
- " you are asking far too much of a very young organisation" - what exactly did I ask of it?
- "how have we upset you anonymous" - where did I say KYC had upset me?
You really need to stop being so sensitive and address the criticism that was offered, not the ones that your fevered imagination has invented!

and btw Mary reid, you say "If you want to raise issues with Kingston Youth Council then I suggest you raise them directly with the Chair, Halima Moin." Actually, the whole point of my posts is that you are the one I have an issue with because you are giving too much weight to this organisation's views. I thought I was clear on that, but obviously not. I guess that's why I end up repeating the point.

ok, your issue seems to be quite heavily that we are not an elected group that can be consulted by the council if they wish.
I, as a member of the council cant see a feasible way to elect members, as there currently is only about 20ish members who cant really be seperated into a heirarchy of roles.
As far as i know, being a members for only a couple of months anybody that wishes to join can, but as there are so few young people that take an interest in council views & operations, whats the point in an election. we're only trying to aid the council in introducing a young voice.
The council is open to critisism if necessary but it wouldnt help matters to take 1 of the very few young voices out of the equation.

ok, your issue seems to be quite heavily that we are not an elected group that can be consulted by the council if they wish.
I, as a member of the council cant see a feasible way to elect members, as there currently is only about 20ish members who cant really be seperated into a heirarchy of roles.
As far as i know, being a members for only a couple of months anybody that wishes to join can, but as there are so few young people that take an interest in council views & operations, whats the point in an election. we're only trying to aid the council in introducing a young voice.
The council is open to critisism if necessary but it wouldnt help matters to take 1 of the very few young voices out of the equation.

mr anonymous....
here comes some serious argument breakdown....
your argument is made on the basis that the non elected members of the KYC's opinions are given too much emphasis?
The only way in which this could be damaging for anyone if is we came to a decision that disadvantaged any particular section of the numbers of young people in the borough. We have never, and probably never will make such decisions without serious consultation without the council, as well as as many different youth groups and young people as we can pobibly get (the youth service does this on a regular basis). Therefore, if none of our decisions we make as a group of 20 actually disadvantage anyone, it doesn't matter whether ot not we are elected. Any decisions we make to effect a much wider bracket we will obviouslobviously consult on, therefore rendering your argument utterly pointless.
If you want examples or details simply tewll us who you are and we can contact you.
Thanks,
Tom

My response to Tom Whitehead-Clarke's points (sorry, "serious argument breakdown"):
You say "The only way in which this could be damaging for anyone if is we came to a decision that disadvantaged any particular section of the numbers of young people in the borough."
I disagree entirely with this statement. Giving too much emphasis to an unelected body is damaging for democracy even if it does not cause any specific damage.
"Therefore, if none of our decisions we make as a group of 20 actually disadvantage anyone, it doesn't matter whether ot not we are elected."
Ditto. Sorry, but democracy always matters in council issues. Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, you could say that it is ok to have a dictatorship instead of parliamentary elections, so long as the dictator was benevolent.
"Any decisions we make to effect a much wider bracket we will obviouslobviously consult on"
Consultation is no substitute for putting yourself up for election and being held answerable for your views in a democratic election. Only by offering yourself for election will you be able to speak on others' behalf. Consulting only makes you better informed, it does not give you a mandate.
And btw, why do you try to make things so personal? Personalising debate is a sign of immaturity. A KYC member debating immaturely is not going to promote a positive image of young people, is it?
And also you still have not understood my point. You say my argument is made "on the basis" that the non elected members of the KYC's opinions are given too much emphasis. Wrong. That IS my argument. Nothing more to it than that.

I must also clarify my position in light of Dominic's comment.
Again, I am afraid my point has been missed!
You say "your issue seems to be quite heavily that we are not an elected group that can be consulted by the council if they wish". Not at all. I never said the council should not consult KYC if they wish. I said that they should give its views only limited weight in light of the fact that it is unelected. That is not the same as saying they should not give its views any weight at all. Re-read my comments and you will see that nowhere have I suggested taking your voice "out of the equeation" - I am merely concerned that it is given undue weight to the detriment of other young people who are not represented by it.

Hello Mr ‘annonymous’
I am Halima Moin Member of Youth Parliament for Kingston. I would firSt like to point out to the readers of this blog including Mary Reid who I consider someone of great importance in the council that I am going by a name because I have full confidence in my beliefs and don’t feel the need to hide my identity for fear of persecution by authoritative members of the public and council in Kingston.
I would like to tell you that I don’t intend to write many more comments in response to annonymous’s endless foolishness as I’m an as level student with work to do and I would purely be lowering myself to your standards. Sir or Madam (I don’t know which gender you belong to) so lets just refer to you as an object shall we?
An ‘it’.
IT STATES THAT KYC MEMBERS ARE NOT ELECTED and that areas of the borough are left without representatives however we have members from estates around Kingston, schools and youth clubs who all come to our monthly meetings, we invite youth and youth workers who represent all aspects of Kingston to them and they fully support the work we are doing.
IN ITS CASE OF ITS PUBLIC ATTACK ON MARY REID all the youth council work closely with Mary and we find her advice and guidance an essential key to how KYC runs. We thank her once again publically for all the time and work she puts into us and that she has put in to ensure KYC is a representative body of the council.
IN REGARDS OF ITS ATTACK AS TO HOW THE MEMBERS ARE ELECTED surely if members of the youth coucil were elected our youth council would consist of mainly members of schools anyway who would gain their support from their own seperate schools as the running candidate. Youth council doesn’t limit the numbers on our body or discriminate against them due to the qualifications and skills they may or may not have. Everyone has talent and everyone can work together to make Kingston a better community to live work and relax in. Who are you to have the audacity to state who should and should not be allowed on our council. We are an open body if you are the youth of Kingston you have a place on our council whether or not ’it’ feels you have to right to take it. As far as your neighbours under the Age of 19 who havent heard of KYC, well seeing as you sir don’t have a name the validity of your fact and opinion in my eyes in debatable.
AND LASTLY I am a Member Of Youth Parliament and along with my deputy and Chris Fullbrook the outgoing myp we represent the youth council on the council. It is the member of youth parliaments job to represent the youth council in the public eye and to the council and once again who are you to say otherwise, im awfully sorry but without a name or at least some sort of status I cant take anything you say seriously. In my eyes you are a coward and if you has an opinion of any worth you would supply us with a name. I agree with all my fellow members of Kingston youth that have risen above you and stated issues based of fact on this matter.
I would say please reply but I don’t wish to hear from you again
Halima Moin MYP AND CHAIR OF KINGSTON YOUTH COUNCIL.

dear 'it', i dont particualarly take to you. i vowed not to add any more blogs to this foolish sharade you seem to be putting on to fill up your time as you obviously have nothing better to do however when you publically attack one of my fellow members of youth council and accuse them of immaturity i feel i have to take the moral high ground. Thomas Whitehead Clark is one of the most mature poeple i know and he is going to go further in life than most. i have the utmost respect for him and his opinions and as they say its the youth against one im afraid. many have posted in opposition to you and you seem to be the only one who has replied which surely shows you and youre possible support are a minority , i bid you goodnight whoever you are and hope you sleep well along with an yone else who is awake at this hour.x halima moin

The problem with the Youth Parliament is that it gives a platform to people like Michael Joslin to sound off. Dont trust him Mrs Reid! He is a well known Labour activist and friend of Nick Parrot. I am sure they will both be seen pounding the streets together in the weeks leading up to May.
p.s.
Please close Searchlight immediately!
p.p.s.
Lets all work together to make this a Labour free borough in 2006!

'Michael Joslin DMYP' - was he appointed or elected?

Best thread yet! Keep up the good work Mrs Reid. Over 30 posts in a day. By contrast Paul Johnston's blog has received 1 post in months!

I hope no one on this site is mean to Michael Joslin. That would be really awful, He is a great man. You watch - he will be the leader of the council by 2014!
(God only knows what he will set the council tax at - £7,000 per household?)

I am the elected Deputy Member of Youth Parliament for Kingston. If you want to make serious points stop using joke names or nobody is going to take you seriously.

Who are these awful people that make up the Yoof Parliament? I dont want to hear what they have to say!
What we really need is LESS participation in local democracy NOT more. Mrs Reid - could you please see to it that Michael Joslin is stripped of any vote he may have. Do you know he is intending to vote Conservative as an anti-Lib Dem measure? What an ingrate! I can inform you that St James' Tories would rather loose than win with the support of people like Micky Joslin. Michael if you are reading this do NOT vote Conservative. We do not want you. And please be quiet.

What you say about Michael is lies! He would never vote for the Tories! (well he would take on a work experience placement with them in the European Parliament, but that is beside the point).

What you say about Michael is lies! He would never vote for the Tories! (well he would take on a work experience placement with them in the European Parliament, but that is beside the point).

i just want to say that im not sure of the entire background behind the immaturity being displayed on this blog. i dont think Mary Reid set up a blog to be abused, you as a group seem to have moved from annonymous to fake names. If you are from a political party then dont you understand how bad youre making the party look? politics is for everyone but politics under the name of a party comes with a sense of maturity,everyone has views tht need to be respected you may not agree with michael joslin and his beliefs but it doesnt make them wrong and you dont have the right to publically attack him on a councillors blog, I have not publicised my personal political views however i could support any one of the three leading parties on kingston.To you nick parrot's PARROT you cant make kingston a labour free borough,havent you heard of a democracy? everyones entitled to their own views WHO ARE YOU TO SAY OTHERWISE?! and you JAKE CARTER stripping people of their votes? at least you are providing me with light entertainment this morning and by the way YOUTH is spelt as i have written it NOT YOOF. And lastly michael was elected as deputy member of youth parliament in kingston, i understand he has had differences with the council but we are now all working together in our borough, there may be different parties groups people and neighbourhoods in our borough but we all belong to the same borough kingston- our borough and we need to work together to improve it.
Halima Moin MYP and CHAIR OF KYC

'To you nick parrot's PARROT you cant make kingston a labour free borough,havent you heard of a democracy?'
I think you are missing the point here. It is quite possible that Kingston will be a Labour free borough at a local level in May 2006. They only have 3 councillors and they could all loose their seats. Therefore, Kingston would be, in one sense, a Labour free borough wouldnt it?
p.s.
I am locked in a cage. Please let me fly free.

'To you nick parrot's PARROT you cant make kingston a labour free borough,havent you heard of a democracy?'
I think you are missing the point here. It is quite possible that Kingston will be a Labour free borough at a local level in May 2006. They only have 3 councillors and they could all loose their seats. Therefore, Kingston would be, in one sense, a Labour free borough wouldnt it?
p.s.
I am locked in a cage. Please let me fly free.

I am astonished that such a simple and (I thought) non-controversial point has generated so much personal outrage and abuse.
If Halima Moin had read my posts, she would see that all I say is that because the KYC is unelected, its views should be weighted accordingly. Why is this interpreted as an "attack" on anyone?
My point was a criticism of the weight given by Mary Reid to the KYC. Not all criticism is an "attack", and this was a legitimate criticism of her approach. Why do KYC members feel the need to respond to such criticism with outrage and abuse? I find it disturbing that members of the KYC can only see this criticism as an attack, rather than as a legitimate contribution to public debate.
As for immaturity, I am afraid the KYC members are proving themselves to be hyper-sensitive and far too quick to take offence where none is offered. I particularly object to Halima Moin's assertion that remaining anonymous somehow invalidates my point. The point is exactly the same whoever posts it and whatever name they go by.
In reply to the points made by Halima Moin, I can only refer readers back to my previous comments, as I think that makes the position pretty clear.
I will reply to one point only, as an example of how she has misrepresented my position. She says "Who are you to have the audacity to state who should and should not be allowed on our council" - er... where exactly did I say who should and should not be allowed on it? I may have suggested that members would be more authoritative if they were elected, but how on earth is that the same as suggesting certain people should and shouldn't be allowed on it? And besides, my point was entirely confined to saying that as an unelected body, its views should be given weight accordingly - how does that have any bearing on who should and shouldn't be allowed on it?
I must say, I find it disturbing that these KYC members cannot distinguish a call for proper democratic balance in the way the council listens to people (what was consistently my position), from a full-frontal attack on the KYC's existence and all its members personally (which I nowhere make). Halima Moin's insistence on following Tom Whitehead by personalising the discussion is even more disturbing.

I have no idea where posts such as Nick Parrott's parrott come from.
I am amazed that Halima Moin is now lecturing that contributor on abusiveness. I should remind readers that she responded to my comments by abusing me for remaining anonymous (insisting that this allowed her to refer to me as an object, that I was being "endlessly foolish" and that she must not "lower herself to my standards")and suggesting that an anonymous contribution is somehow less valid just because it is made anonymously.
And btw I am deeply concerned about the irrational reaction the KYC members have given to my comment. They have read my comments and seen "attacks" that simply are not there. This seems highly irrational behaviour and under the circumstances is it any wonder I don't want to enter into personal correspondance with such people?
She says "everyone has views tht need to be respected". Hm. Her insistence on misrepresenting my views, taking offence where there is none to be found, and indulging in personal abuse, is not very respectful, is it?

This thread has now descended into irrelevant abuse (some of it from KYC members, sadly).
I do not intend to post any more replies to the inexplicable outrage I have unwittingly generated.
I think I have gone to great lengths to explain to the KYC members that I was not attacking them personally or the existence of KYC. I have done my best to allay their unjustifiable anger. I have painstakingly explained that expressing concern about the weight given to organisations' views is not an attack on the organistion or a call for its abolition - it is simply a legitimate contribution to the decision-making process.
If my position is still unclear, I can only suggest you re-read the previous comments I made. I cannot now add anything more to make the position clearer.
I am very disappointed that the KYC members have misinterpreted this comment and over-reacted so severely.

The reason your point as provoked such outrage because of the suspected motives. We all know who posted the Nick Parrott's Parrott is representing that Conservative Party as the post itself states and it is clear that you are remaining annoymous for political reasons. If you want to make a point then disclose yourself.

"The reason your point as provoked such outrage because of the suspected motives"
You have no justification to read motives into my comments! And even if my comments have a particular motive (which they don't), so what? The motive in putting forward a comment is not relevant to the nature of the comment itself. The comment is the same whatever the "motive" in voicing it.
I am very concerned that you are only able to debate in a personalised manner. My name and identity are personal attributes - it is a fundamental principle of good debate that you should address an argument without reference to the speaker's personal characteristics. I am puzzled that you feel outraged by a comment being put forward anonymously when the fact is that the argument would be no different if it was made with a name.
"is clear that you are remaining annoymous for political reasons"
You suggest here without justification that I have political motives. So what? Even if I was a conservative like the other commenter (which I am not), why is that a cause for outrage? The comment I make is no different whether I am a conservative or otherwise.
And in any case, it is quite clear from Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin's comments that it is not suspected motives that have outraged them. They have assumed that my comment was some sort of attack on the KYC when it was simply an expression of concern about proper balance in the council's decision-making process. That is an unjustified and irrational reaction. I have done my best to calm you all down and reassure you, but I cannot explain this point any more than I already have done. I can only suggest you stop focussing on irrelevant worries about imaginary motives and people's identities. These things should not be cause for outrage, and it is disturbing that you have overreacted so much to them.

"The reason your point as provoked such outrage because of the suspected motives"
There is no justification for reading motives into my comments. And even if there were particular motives (which there aren't) - so what? The motive behind making a comment has no bearing on the nature of the comment itself. The comment is the same irrespective of the motive of the person voicing it.
"it is clear that you are remaining annoymous for political reasons"
Again, you have no justification for this comment. even if I were a conservative like the other commenter (which I am not), so what? A comment is not somehow less valid because of the commenter's political allegiance. And the comment cannot be any different because the commenter does not give a name.
I am disturbed that you are not able to debate without reference to people's personal characteristics. It is a fundamental principle of good debate that you address the argument, not the characteristics of the person making it. My political allegiance (real or imaginary) and my identity are personal characteristics and have no bearing on the correctness or otherwise of my argument.
And in any case, it is clear from Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin's posts that they are not outraged by any suspected motives. They are outraged because they have interpreted my comments as an "attack" on the KYC and themselves, when in fact I was simply expressing concern at the imbalance in the council's decision-making process. This is an irrational reaction and the outrage they feel is simply not justified either on these grounds or on the grounds that you suggest.
I have gone to great efforts to calm you and the others down, and to reassure you that no personal attack was ever intended against you (although this should have been obvious from the start). You really need to stop focussing on irrelevant personal factors such as someone's identity etc. Other than that, I cannot help to calm you down any more, other than suggesting that you go back and re-read the comments CALMLY.

And btw Michael Joslin, you cite the comments by nick parrott's parrot as reason for suspecting me of political motives (even though they are clearly from a different person). The fact is that your fellow KYC members were overreacting and displaying unjustified outrage on this thread long before this joker started posting.

Anonymous - I suspect the reason that KYC members may be a bit paranoid and defensive is firstly that they have come under a sustained campaign of ad hominem abuse from local Conservative Future activists on the internet of late and secondly that you have rather oddly chosen to caricature them alone as a consultative body with no electoral mandate.
They actually have one of the most democratic mandates of any of the Council's legion of consultative bodies. Why not attack Kingston Centre for Independent Living, Kingston Racial Equality Council, Kingston Voluntary Action, etc? Most of them have no elected element at all yet are taken far more seriously by councillors. You pick solely on KYC and it's not surprising that they think this is for a reason!

I "picked solely on" KYC because that was what the original post was about!
And I did not "attack" or "pick on" them as you put it - I simply asked Mary Reid to weight their views according to the fact that they are unelected, and I expressed concern that she was not doing this. Had her post been about the racial equality council or whatever, I would have discussed that with her instead.
I cannot be responsible for the attacks made on KYC by the conservatives. Surely KYC members should be able to deal with more than one commenter at a time?
And I do not accept that it is odd to characterise KYC as having no electoral mandate. No member of it is directly elected, and most of them are not elected at all. I agree that they consult, but that is no substitute for an election and with the many thousands of young people living or studying in kingston, consultation can only go so far. I therefore think there are severe limits on their representativeness and the council should take this into account when weighting their views.

You started off your thread by claming to "fear reprisals" rather implying you thought that the youth council might don their hoodies and come round to torch your house or something, then went on to question whether they received any funding. I'm not surprised they felt this a rather hostile tone. And by choosing to remain anonymous you did rather risk the mistaken identity problem.
The point about your focus on KYC is that the council funds many bodies that have a representative function but are not directly elected; at any rate many of the KYC reps *are* elected - in the case of the MYP and DMYP by a pretty wide electorate. Far from perfect of course but then turnout in local council elections is often less than a third and there are other bodies (e.g. Kingston College Students' Union) that fill in many of the gaps.
At any rate, the point is that KYC are a consultative body and they have no decision making powers - the council uses them as the most effective method to consult young people. And in that role they do have a far greater democratic mandate than most other consultative bodies. You've gone out of your way to avoid saying any criticism of the council listening to similar bodies that represent other "stakeholder" groups, e.g. pensioners, ethnic minorities, etc, and it does give the impression, whether mistaken or not, that you have a peculiar chip on your shoulder about the youth council.

My attention has just been drawn to this absurd set of posts. The comment made by anonymous are still yet to be properly addressed. I also welcome such comments. I have been with KYC for just over two years, i have seen it grow from 5 to 25 members and would not criticise their work for a second. This debate does not call into question the work of the individuals, i feel it would be apt for all to acknowledge this. KYC is unelected, save its MYPs, true, but KYC has been adopted as a fully CONSULTATIVE body of the council. Young people are a hard to reach group that need representing, the diversity of KYC goes some way to achieving this. Members of KYC visit youth clubs regularly to guage opinion, are active in their local school councils and are not self serving, doing voluntary work for over 5 hours a week while doing studies is not a self serving thing to do. The council have entrusted the task of reading young people's opinion across the borough, it strives to do this as best it can. Perhaps one day it will be fully elected, however this remains logistically impossible for now. I salute the members of KYC who undertake this task and members of all consulted bodies as they strive to become as representative as possible. The organization is not so nieve that it has not considered the questions raised by anon, they are nothing new,they are being addressed, and please should anyone here have any suggetsinos about how to achieve they'd be more than welcome. I anticipate the end of a hostile approach to both sides of this debate, a question and an answer have been posed.
Chris Fullbrook
Young People's Champion for Participation

Hear, hear Chis. I think the above is the most sensible post of the day. It really is a bit silly that some of the members of the KYP have decided to take such offence at criticism (not the same as attack) and throw their toys out of the pram. I doubt if anyone, whether Lib Dem or Conservative has any issue with the majority of KYP members, who I am sure do a very good job. However there is an exception: Michael Joslin. He clearly has a political bias and, although he will deny it, uses his position as Deputy Member for Kingston to fight the Labour corner. As Cllr Osbourne told him, Joslin knew that all of the proposed cuts to Youth services were to be reinstated a full week before the full budget. Despite this he campaigned for a week to 'stop the cuts'! This was dishonest. Subsequently Joslin has reorientated his position so that he argues that it was 'madness' for the council to even consider such cuts in the first place. (a line very similar to that used by Ed Naylor on the same topic - I wonder who influenced who?). The latest bee in Joslin's bonet is the 'privitisation' of searchlight youth centre. In what way is this a 'cut'?
If I am not mistaken, KYP is supposed to be non-political. I appreciate that this is very difficult to acheive, as it would be unusual if such motivtated people (including Chris Fulbrook, Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin who seem to be intelligent youngsters all motivated by a wish to do good and increase youth participation) do not have some preference privately for one party or another. That is fine. However, Michael Joslin is just another Labour stoodge who gets stroppy when this FACT is pointed out.
(also I want a cracker)

Hear, hear Chis. I think the above is the most sensible post of the day. It really is a bit silly that some of the members of the KYP have decided to take such offence at criticism (not the same as attack) and throw their toys out of the pram. I doubt if anyone, whether Lib Dem or Conservative has any issue with the majority of KYP members, who I am sure do a very good job. However there is an exception: Michael Joslin. He clearly has a political bias and, although he will deny it, uses his position as Deputy Member for Kingston to fight the Labour corner. As Cllr Osbourne told him, Joslin knew that all of the proposed cuts to Youth services were to be reinstated a full week before the full budget. Despite this he campaigned for a week to 'stop the cuts'! This was dishonest. Subsequently Joslin has reorientated his position so that he argues that it was 'madness' for the council to even consider such cuts in the first place. (a line very similar to that used by Ed Naylor on the same topic - I wonder who influenced who?). The latest bee in Joslin's bonet is the 'privitisation' of searchlight youth centre. In what way is this a 'cut'?
If I am not mistaken, KYP is supposed to be non-political. I appreciate that this is very difficult to acheive, as it would be unusual if such motivtated people (including Chris Fulbrook, Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin who seem to be intelligent youngsters all motivated by a wish to do good and increase youth participation) do not have some preference privately for one party or another. That is fine. However, Michael Joslin is just another Labour stoodge who gets stroppy when this FACT is pointed out.
(also I want a cracker)

Hear, hear Chis. I think the above is the most sensible post of the day. It really is a bit silly that some of the members of the KYP have decided to take such offence at criticism (not the same as attack) and throw their toys out of the pram. I doubt if anyone, whether Lib Dem or Conservative has any issue with the majority of KYP members, who I am sure do a very good job. However there is an exception: Michael Joslin. He clearly has a political bias and, although he will deny it, uses his position as Deputy Member for Kingston to fight the Labour corner. As Cllr Osbourne told him, Joslin knew that all of the proposed cuts to Youth services were to be reinstated a full week before the full budget. Despite this he campaigned for a week to 'stop the cuts'! This was dishonest. Subsequently Joslin has reorientated his position so that he argues that it was 'madness' for the council to even consider such cuts in the first place. (a line very similar to that used by Ed Naylor on the same topic - I wonder who influenced who?). The latest bee in Joslin's bonet is the 'privitisation' of searchlight youth centre. In what way is this a 'cut'?
If I am not mistaken, KYP is supposed to be non-political. I appreciate that this is very difficult to acheive, as it would be unusual if such motivtated people (including Chris Fulbrook, Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin who seem to be intelligent youngsters all motivated by a wish to do good and increase youth participation) do not have some preference privately for one party or another. That is fine. However, Michael Joslin is just another Labour stoodge who gets stroppy when this FACT is pointed out.
(also I want a cracker)

Hear, hear Chis. I think the above is the most sensible post of the day. It really is a bit silly that some of the members of the KYP have decided to take such offence at criticism (not the same as attack) and throw their toys out of the pram. I doubt if anyone, whether Lib Dem or Conservative has any issue with the majority of KYP members, who I am sure do a very good job. However there is an exception: Michael Joslin. He clearly has a political bias and, although he will deny it, uses his position as Deputy Member for Kingston to fight the Labour corner. As Cllr Osbourne told him, Joslin knew that all of the proposed cuts to Youth services were to be reinstated a full week before the full budget. Despite this he campaigned for a week to 'stop the cuts'! This was dishonest. Subsequently Joslin has reorientated his position so that he argues that it was 'madness' for the council to even consider such cuts in the first place. (a line very similar to that used by Ed Naylor on the same topic - I wonder who influenced who?). The latest bee in Joslin's bonet is the 'privitisation' of searchlight youth centre. In what way is this a 'cut'?
If I am not mistaken, KYP is supposed to be non-political. I appreciate that this is very difficult to acheive, as it would be unusual if such motivtated people (including Chris Fulbrook, Tom Whitehead and Halima Moin who seem to be intelligent youngsters all motivated by a wish to do good and increase youth participation) do not have some preference privately for one party or another. That is fine. However, Michael Joslin is just another Labour stoodge who gets stroppy when this FACT is pointed out.
(also I want a cracker)

Have I ever publicly suppourted a political party in any newspaper? No I have not and if I have I will resign. It seems clear that certain members of the community are using any political links I may or may not have to discredit what I have to say. There are several active political members suppourting all 3 major political parties in the KYC. A member of the KYC who is a member of the Conservative party was pictured in the Surrey Comet suppourting my line. I don't see you attacking him and you full well know who he is as he is one of your members. As for the cuts I did know that the cuts to the evening youth work budget had been restored. However there were still cuts to Admovere and youth services through neighbourhood budgets so we had every right to protest. If you had heard my speech at the full council meeting, you would have heard me congratulating the Lib Dems for restoring the money for evening youth work. But the decision should not have been made in the first place. And to the Searchlight issue, the proposed privatisation is a massive threat. Putting the control of a youth project into the hands of a private profit orientated company is a mistake. The aim will be to line the pockets of the business and not to help young people. Why can't the council run the centre in house? Why can't they fund the centre 7 days a week so there is no need for private lettings. You seem all to eager to attack me whilst I know a lot about the issue and a clear understanding of what I believe is right. And to the issue of Cllr Ed Naylor, yes I know Ed. Just as I know Lib Dem and Conservative councillors who have helped shape my opinions and given me advice. This has nothing to do with which political party I suppourt; this is about doing my job and fighting for a better deal for young people. I suggest instead of attacking me for supposedly suppourting a political party you try and do something about the problems for young people in Kingston first.

Michael - I am going to ask you a straight question. Are you a member of the Labour Party?

Michael - I am going to ask you a straight question. Are you a member of the Labour Party?

To Mr Nick parrot's parrot ...What difference does it make to what party Michael Joslin is affiliated with? You seem to have a personal vendetta against him and wouldn’t the mature thing be to talk civilly with him and not insult him?
And who ever you are "anonymous" you have nothign left to back your debate upon and you are simply repeating your self over and over again.

To Mr Nick parrot's parrot ...What difference does it make to what party Michael Joslin is affiliated with? You seem to have a personal vendetta against him and wouldn’t the mature thing be to talk civilly with him and not insult him?
And who ever you are "anonymous" you have nothign left to back your debate upon and you are simply repeating your self over and over again.

To Mr Nick parrot's parrot ...What difference does it make to what party Michael Joslin is affiliated with? You seem to have a personal vendetta against him and wouldn’t the mature thing be to talk civilly with him and not insult him?
And who ever you are "anonymous" you have nothign left to back your debate upon and you are simply repeating your self over and over again.

To Mr Nick parrot's parrot ...What difference does it make to what party Michael Joslin is affiliated with? You seem to have a personal vendetta against him and wouldn’t the mature thing be to talk civilly with him and not insult him?
And who ever you are "anonymous" you have nothign left to back your debate upon and you are simply repeating your self over and over again.

It has never been a secret as to my party political affiliations and I hold many strongly held beliefs that affiliate me with the Labour Party and I am proud to be a member of the Labour Party. However unlike your identity for I know who you are, but others here don't, I don't keep it a secret and if you ask me a direct question I will asnwer it. I don't let my membership of a political party taint my passionate belief in young peoples rights and I act on a non party political basis whilst doing anything to do with youth issues and several youth council members who have posted above are members of the COnservative party. I am going ask you a question are you a member of Conservative Future?

Everyone knows who Michael Joslin is and what he believes in. But who are you and what political party are you a member of? Who would be silly enough to do this to a hardworking member of the community?

nick parrot's parrot is Robert-John Tasker, Conservative candidate in Beverley ward. Those of us who've been watching his efforts up close would recognise that misplaced arrogance anywhere.
The only way to keep this muppet off Council is to vote for Beverley's Lib Dem councillors - Derek Osbourne, Simon James and Don Jordan. A vote for Labour is a vote for Tasker.
Much as it may grieve you, Micky J, you and your KYC mates will have to swallow your pride and vote tactically, or Tasker and his gang of ultra-Thatcherite loons might get in and they really will do all things you've been snivelling about in the Comet!

I have read the above blogs and have decided to come at this topic from a different angle, the above dsicussion pleases me because I feel it is rare for KYC to get as much input on their youth council as we have in the last day and we are everyones youth coucil, for this I wish to thank anon and the other members of this discussion for putting their views forward. We shall endeavour to make sure that these views help to bring about change that KYC has been aware it needs since its birth, has been working on and have now been made a hard priority. I am going to try and ensure that the ideas that have been posted are pursued. I believe that politics is for everyone and everyone who has commented on the youth council has done so because they are a valuable part of our borough and we all want and work for change, we can only get better as a borough that is already very respected. I like the debate that has taken place and in light of it I thought you may like to know that we have been working forward. This seems an apt time to tell you of our current projects. I am personally visiting every school and youth council in the borough in the upcoming months and with a group of colleagues pulling together results drawn from every corner of Kingston to ensure that we do represent youth as I understand that at the moment we do not as fully as we could, Kingston youth council is also currently placing suggestion boxes around Kingston to gather information on highs and lows in our borough. Anon should be glad that KYC is taking ways to be more represented and shall continue doing so in the future hopefully with the help of people who feel they have ideas that could benefit us.
Any suggestions on putting together an electorate body of young people in the borough that will volunteer the time and will to commit as KYC do would be very much appreciated.
Hlaima Moin - MYP and chair of KYC